Online or Magazine camera dealers, honest or a scam (yes it is too good to be true)

[schnazzy]

After observing the same human behavior over and over when it comes to common sence and to good to be true pricing on electronics (or anything), I have decided to help out with a bit of information you can use to help yourself.

First, this is not an advertisement for any retailers and my comments do not necissarily reflect those of this site, it's operators, administrators, owners, members, visitors, or moderators (or anyone else but myself).

www.bhphotovideo.com is one of the oldest, largest, and most reputable electronics (camera/video) companies (brick and internet) in New York if not the whole US (since 1972). Try to find the item you are looking for at their site and check the price. If you do price shopping and find another online retailer with a price more than about 10% less than BH's price (especially on sony, jvc, panasonic, and canon), it is probably a red flag aka, what I like to call, a SCAM SITE. Why 10%? Well most electronic dealers work on about a 5-10% profit model. If a camera is $3000 at BH and $2300 at another place, tell me how they got a camera so low priced that they can sell it for $300 less than cost. Now we all know their cost fluctuates, but how does a small online company beat a large company like BH on cost price when BH buys Canon XL1-s by the pallet (seriously)? They can't!.

In general the SCAM SITES run one of the following scams.

The site is a front and there is no product and you will never get your gear. Very unusual.
The site sells stolen gear. Very unusual.
The site sells used gear. Normal
The site sells grey market. Normal
The site will say the camera is not in stock unless you buy expensive add-ons. ALMOST ALWAYS. Ok they are not doing anything illegal directly but it's a scam. (they have a right to refuse, it is not bait and switch)

Definition- Grey Market are items not destined for the US and do not have a US warranty. These could possibly been "dropped off a truck" in another country and shipped here. Note dropped off a truck means stolen.

Definition - expensive add-ons. A battery with an MSRP of $100 and they sell it ON SALE for $150. A warranty for $600 (usually the difference between their price and competitors price). A wide angle lense that is usually $695 and they will sell it for $350 (what a deal! expect it's crap. Retail on the BEST wide angle lenses which are from Century Optics is $300 (37mm), note thats RETAIL and they want to sell you a $80 made in china crap lense. A case, for only $150, their cost $25. A tripod, their cost $35, your cost $179.
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Ok so enough of the examples. How do you spot a scam site? If it is more than 10% less than BH is a good guestimate but if you don't believe it's too good to be true, do some homework!

First, do a whois lookup which will tell you who the owner is and when the domain name was purchased. Use this site:
http://www.networksolutions.com/cgi-bin/whois/whois

The first section (Organization) will state the legal name of the owner, person or company. Lets give the example of the non-existant domain of www.camerascamer.com.

Under organization it says that the registrant (owner) is Scam Artist, Inc. and they are located in Brooklyn, NY (amazing, that most low priced companies are in NY. Many NY based magazine or online sites in NY meet the SCAM SITE definition).
We go a little further and the "Created on" date is 6 months ago. If the site hasn't been in operation for 3 years this is a red flag.

Now since it is in NY we will go to the NY better business bureau site. http://www.newyork.bbb.org/ or http://www.bbbonline.org/

We will look up the company under the COMPANY name not the site since it is as easy as paying $9 for a new domain name but near impossible to change a company name. (business license, duns number, corporation papers, leases, insurance etc,. is just too hard to change).

We lookup Scam Artists (don't use Inc.) and lets see if they have a good or bad record. A good record would be that they registered with the BBB (and usually would have a WORKING BBB logo on their site like BHphotovideo does).

A smaller less known company should have VERY FEW complains. A large company will have complains, look at how many were resolved. Also, an honest company will be listed with the BBB not just in their Database because of complaints.

Logos from anyone (verisgn etc) except the BBB are not a good way to judge the company since most companies don't actually look at business practices they just make sure the $800 check clears (aka verisign).

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Ok here is the wrapup:
Check how long ago the web site was created via whois.
-less than 3 years is a red flag

Does the site have a working BBB logo on their site and or is REGISTERED with the BBB?
-Yes? you may have a little leverage if you have a dispute.

Does the site state prices that are more than 10% less than the average competitor, on name brand electronics?
-Yes is a RED FLAG

Does the site not only state amazing prices on core electronic pieces but accessories are not name brand or seem expensive or are more than retail?
-Yes is a RED FLAG
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If you are unsure, buy local from someone who has the item in stock.

Use a credit card (not debit card with a credit card logo). Especially if it has buyers protection!

Use a site a friend will recomend. A friend you know and have met in person. Some "opinion" sites are littered with fake or false positive notes about a site.

Happy shopping.

[steve]

wow!. I want to compliment on you on this post schanzzy simply because it really needed to be said. When I was looking for my GL-1 I had encountered some SHADY dealers that definately wanted to sell me EVERYTHING they could and were dropping prices left and right when I told them what my budgit was. Obviosly not a good idea to spend money on something that was $100 for a telephoto etc. I hope everyone reads this and takes it to heart to aid in saving themselves a lot of trouble and MONEY in the future.
-Steve

[racerboy777]

Well I agree with Schnazzy.
When i was looking for my DCR-TRV840 i went price shopping and i found a place called www.bwayphoto.com i checked it out and they had the low price of $459, i was like WHOA because in stores this camera seels for $899 os i called up and found out it was just he body (no battery charger no nothing just the bare body), and the people were really rude. I checked this one site where people review dealers and everyone there hated the place out of like 100 reviews only one was positive!

[DOHC_VTi]

really helpfull info.....I'm out there for a SLR camera and since I live outside US it helps me chooce where to shop.

Thanks alot!!

[BayBimmerM3]

good job schnazzy

[mospeedracer]

would you buy from this web site beach camera

the bbb report

I want to purcahse the Canon Powershot A60 and it is more than 10% cheaper than the bhphoto price. tell me what you think of this company and if you would buy from them

[schnazzy]

I'd be a little worried about the fact that the site is no more than 10 months old.

Record created on 17-Sep-2002.

However They have been in business for a while. Personally I'd call BH and see if they will match the price.

NJ is no NY but it's kinda close. I would be a bit nervous but more on the side of my CC # being swiped by a script kiddie.

I always say BH but if you feel up to it, try Beach and let us know how it goes.

[mospeedracer]

thanks i will let you know when i purchase it and if i get any confrintations.

[carpetsloth]

I have purchased many things online with great success, the following is the single bad experience I have had, I figured I would share it since it was an order of camera equipment.

Last august I was looking for a camera mount system for incar footage. I read all the reviews on dtmpower.net, audiworld, vwvortex and nasioc.com (formerly i-club). Everyone had nothing but good things to say about the speedmount so I went to speedmount.com and placed my order using paypal.

When I didn't get a confirmation e-mail after a week I sent them one to see if they had received my order. I got a response back the next day saying they had my order and it would be shipped out asap. After another week I contacted them again since I hadn't received any tracking information. They said that the WRX mounts were sold out and they had to make more but they would ship within a week or so. They were generally pretty quick to respond and seemed to be legit so I didn't think anything of it.

After 5 weeks of promises and no product I contacted paypal. They told me that since it was over 30 days ago that I paid that they couldn't help me. So I posted threads on all the aformentioned websites asking if anyone had any bad dealings with speedmount. Everyone that responded seemed pleased with the service etc except for one guy on vwvortex.

We communicated via e-mail and he ended up driving to the speedmount manufacturing place to get his. He got me some contact info for the machine shop that made the mounts and I contacted them. They told me that the guy (Patrick Schurtenberger) that was behind the speedmount owed them a lot of money as well, I guess he just pulled a vanishing act. The gentleman I was speaking with was very nice and offered to send me a speedmount minus the ball mount for the camera for free since they had an unpaid order of them sitting upstairs.

I admit that I was a little complacent in tracking my order from speedmount but I had never had a bad experience shopping online and I figured the guy was an honest business man since he seemed to be well regarded on the message forums.

PS: I in know way blame any of the previously mentioned sites for anything, I only blame the crook that stole my money (Patrick Schurtenberger).

[Greg]

I had a terrible experience with Broadway Photo, never again would I buy from them.

[stjobs]

J&R is also reputable. I have never had a problem with them and they are a fairly well-recognized name.