What sway bar diameters are you guys running for the track? I want oversteer dammit!

[M42-Technic]

I have a unique suspension setup that I'm sure a lot of you have as well. I have a '94 318. However, I swaped to the front strut design which has the front tabs for the M3 sway bar endlinks. Right now I'm using the 20mm M3 rear sway bar and 23.5mm front (strut mounted) M3 bar. I'm just intersted in what you guys are running on the track (especially M3 guys or people with the M3 strut/sway bar design). I still have too much initial body roll. The track I currently attend has lots of very low speed sharp turns. The understeer is killing me. It's probably a track made for FWD cars such as Hondas.

I've tried the Dinan control arm mounted 27.5mm front bar in all settings paired with the 20mm rear M3 bar. There was little to no body roll. However, still way too much understeer. Note that I have a 318, so there's no throttle induced oversteer here.

Last week I ordered a 21mm 2 way adjustable H&R rear sway bar, should be comming in this week. I have a bit of a problem. There are no H&R front sway bars available for the M3 strut mounted design. The only bar they have is 28mm for 325/328! That's much too thick to mount to the strut. Most aftermarket brands use 24-25mm in the front for the M3. I'll probably have lots of understeer agian. What do you think I should do? Should I switch back to the control arm mounted sway design and go with the 28mm front?

Oh yeah, I'm using Bilstein/H&R combo.

Thanks for your opinions guys!

Bry

[LITEWAITM3]

If you have a machine shop around, you can make a pretty simple split block mount for a custom bar and get some serious bars in there.

I have jim bell custom on front and rear of my racecar, and its pretty intense.

Heres a shot of the adjustment end of the front right corner (notice subframe integration into cage)

[M42-Technic]

That's an interesting design. I've never seen anything like that before. Is the bar hollow?

[LITEWAITM3]

Yea, its a custom job made for race applications only. It'll probablyt run you about $2k for the setup.

Its hollow yes (you can see in the picture). To get an idea of how stiff they are, you only have to jack the carup 3 pumps (normal jack) for the tiresto clear the ground. The suspension does not sag at all as you raise the car (also dueto the moton shocks).

[Matthew C Smith]

If it's oversteer you want, just remove the front sway bar. It'll spin like a top. I wouldn't recommend it, but it'll oversteer.

You really shouldn't be using the sway bars to drastically change the dynamics of the car. What spring rates are you using?

[listed]

i agree with matthew c in not trying to use the sway bars to adjust that much. But if you want oversteer from the car with sways you need to probably leave the front one stock and upgrade on the back which will the rear slide more which equals oversteer, you can also do this with damping but i do not know if you have coilovers or an adjustable shock...

[M42-Technic]

I'm using Bilstein dampers, so damper stiffness is not adjustable. I'm using my car for track, so removing the front sway bar would be just downright silly. I want to be able to put my car into a 4 wheel drift or "race drift" hense the need for a stiffer front and rear sway bar combo. I'm not sure what my spring rates are. I was using the Eibach pro kit springs which were progessive springs (didn't like that setup). Now I switched to H&R sport springs. Eibach and H&R company websites state that they cannot provide spring rate info to the public and it's only available for their developers, what a crock! Although many people have suggested mixing and matching springs, I don't usually like to do this. Eg. putting in M3 rear springs.

I'm going to wait for my H&R rear sway bar to come in and see if I like the results. I still feel too much initial body roll. I think the front bar may be too thin. Does a strut mounted sway bar design actually increase stiffness over the control arm mounted design? I know people say it's more effective, but in what way? There is less unsprung weight, but how does that affect the overall handling of the car? Will using a 28mm strut mounted sway bar drastically increase understeer as compared to using the 28mm bar moutned to the control arm? Thanks for your help guys.

Bry

[LITEWAITM3]

Originally Posted by listed

you can also do this with damping but i do not know if you have coilovers or an adjustable shock...

It depends. If we are talking turn entry/exit, then it can help, but for static turns, while at constant rates, dampers are not going to do it...its going to be spring rates mainly.

Does the car oversteer when you try throttle lift oversteering techniques?

Or doesitjust Plow all the time? A Lot of time a car might feel like its understeering, but it could just be driving technique (no offense, just saying what it could be).

Have you had any instructors or experienced racers/drivers run it?

Search on BF in the track forum, you can get some good answers there, lots has been discussed in the past. Goodluck

[Glucas21]

Here is a chart that is very helpful for setting up your car the way you want it. I agree with you, I would take a car that oversteers rather than understeers any day of the week. Hope this helps you.

- Garrett

[M42-Technic]

Thanks for the chart, but that's pretty basic. It's pretty much what most people should know already before fooling around with sway bar diameters.

At any rate, I'm still trying to determine how a strut mounted sway bar differs in stiffness compared to a control arm mounted sway bar. Any theories?

That chart was actually originally from Korman's site

Bry

[M42-Technic]

Originally Posted by LITEWAITM3

It depends. If we are talking turn entry/exit, then it can help, but for static turns, while at constant rates, dampers are not going to do it...its going to be spring rates mainly.

Does the car oversteer when you try throttle lift oversteering techniques?

Or doesitjust Plow all the time? A Lot of time a car might feel like its understeering, but it could just be driving technique (no offense, just saying what it could be).

Have you had any instructors or experienced racers/drivers run it?

Search on BF in the track forum, you can get some good answers there, lots has been discussed in the past. Goodluck

If I'm going quick enough "liftoff" oversteer will work. However, at a low speed track with lots of tight turns I still find my car running a bit wide. At the beginning of the season I was using Eibach pro kit springs. I've noticed that my car would seem to run wide first, then give a bit of snap oversteer. I wonder if this is because of Eibach's progessive springs. When you first turn initially, the spring rate is soft, when you reach the limit, you get a super stiff spring rate thus causing the snap oversteer. I haven't done any serious track driving after installing the H&R springs, I should try that first as I'm sure H&R springs are less progessive and have a much stiffer spring rate. Can anyone confirm this?

I really should get an instructor to test out my car. Just haven't been able to come up with the $400-500 driving school fee