Highest N/A numbers?

[Stldave2]

FI is the only way to fly

Not trying to burst bubbles, yes high horsepower NA engines kick ass, but if you just want horsepower you can get twice as much if not more for the same cost out of a turbo... its more economical.

[mrsha007]

Originally posted by PrinceE30
You think fully customizable engine managament (ie Motec, Tec3) is better or the same as Alpha N? (assuming you have all the mods Mike has)

-Prince

alpha N isnt a complete standalone. motec is, apples and oranges. but yes, motec would be a much higher standard of engine man. however, there is a nice price tag with it, plus the install is ahrder, and GOOOOD luck on the tunning.

[Phunkatek]

Originally posted by Stldave2
FI is the only way to fly

Not trying to burst bubbles, yes high horsepower NA engines kick ass, but if you just want horsepower you can get twice as much if not more for the same cost out of a turbo... its more economical.

Yes, I already know that- but turbo or s/c'ing your car can be dangerous (maybe leaning more towards turbo) depending on how far you go with it from what I've read. But another thing is that I'm sure there are other people who don't really need all that power and might just want only enough to smoke the average jackass on the freeway. I know I'm leaning more towards this being in CA I get so tired of one assclown after another on the freeway, but I don't exactly go to the track every weekend as I would like to, nor am I a member of the local streetracing crowd (yeah those guys are just too cool for me ). If that 300hp is easily reachable then that should be enough for what I'm talking about here.

Besides and, one big thing here is depending on what n/a mods you do you could still go f/i in the end and REALLY benefit from them- just a FEW things you could do specifically to the head: porting inlet/exhaust, go bigger valves, modify comb. chamber modify valves, valve guides, better gasket, lighter pistons, comp. ratio, improve air/fuel mix for better burn, improved valve stem seals, oil splash sheilds for valve caps as well as many more... yes these are all small modifications to the head, yet remember the engine head is the most important part!
From what I've seen, most people around here simply go get their head ported and that's about it as far as the head goes. Now I don't know how well tuned bmw heads already are, but I'm sure there's room for improvement I don't think bmw would go and put out a full race-spec engine in their production cars- these are cars made with the average driver in mind so they try to make an engine that is powerful and reliable, yet won't compromise efficiency at the same time. Sorry bout the long post but in light of what I've said I just would like some more explanation on the 'already fine-tuned' part of this:

Originally posted by petar7408
i dont think it can get 350 without FI

bmw's are made fine tuned, not much more you can do without FI

[PrinceE30]

Here's a clue for a lot of you...

CA people do not have access to 93 octane. Thus, you have to do a lot of fuel mixing to get a good mix of usable fuel for turbo cars. Even at that, you're not likely to pass emissions in that state as well.

As good as FI is (sometimes), it's just not feasable for some people due to fuel constraints. In addition, with turbo cars you have the problem of detonation, engine wear, heat soak, reliability, and cost (even for well tuned turbo'ed engines). With supercharged cars you're getting great benefits all the time (throughout the rev range) but you are still getting a parasitc effect with the belt. Also, the belts can still break and put you out of luck, as was the case of Simeon's 7er from VAC Motorsports on the One Lap of America.

NA will be the more reliable way to go (for the most part). Modifiing your intake, exhaust, and computer, as well as head work, will give you reliable power for a little less than most FI setups. Not until you start going with radical cams and high revving is there a problem with engine wear.

-Prince

[MrPayne]

Originally posted by PrinceE30
NA will be the more reliable way to go (for the most part). Modifiing your intake, exhaust, and computer, as well as head work, will give you reliable power for a little less than most FI setups. Not until you start going with radical cams and high revving is there a problem with engine wear.

-Prince

NA will be more reliable to a certain power level only. After 280rwhp for the E36 3.0L or 3.2L engins I can not see a NA engine being more reliable than a FI setup. FI setups are mainly used for power generation for situations greater than that anyway.

[robfrmny21]

all motors that come from any car company are detuned for reliablity. so there is some power left in but at the cost of engine life

[czm3]

You guys are looking right over the obvious. Everybody is talking about S50 and S52. The S54 engine is a 3.2 liter stock 333hp, in the CSL its about 360hp. All NA tuning.

A friend has a e36 M3 with a S52 OBD1 conversion. Its a stickly built motor putting down about 315 hp at the crank.

[Atiyeh]

Originally posted by czm3
You guys are looking right over the obvious. Everybody is talking about S50 and S52. The S54 engine is a 3.2 liter stock 333hp, in the CSL its about 360hp. All NA tuning.

A friend has a e36 M3 with a S52 OBD1 conversion. Its a stickly built motor putting down about 315 hp at the crank.

and please point us in the direction of someone who has popped an s54 in an e36

[BayBimmerM3]

are there fi kits that pass emissions in california and how about these n/a motors do they pass emissions in ca?

[///M3DarkSide]

Originally posted by Atiyeh
and please point us in the direction of someone who has popped an s54 in an e36

You don't even need the S54. Just get the S52B32. Power, reliablilty and cool factor all rolled into one. Gotta love that.

[///M3DarkSide]

Plus as Atiyeh seems to know. S54's don't really fit in the E36

[czm3]

Originally posted by Atiyeh
and please point us in the direction of someone who has popped an s54 in an e36

After you point me in the direction where ANYbody said this was an e36 specific discussion....

[SG_M3]

Originally posted by czm3
After you point me in the direction where ANYbody said this was an e36 specific discussion....

Isn't it just understood?

[Alex Mc]

Sorry to chime in so late!

Couple things.. well first of all, the Euro E36 M3 is actually more akin to the S14 with 2 more cylinders than the S54 motor. The S54 is a whole new era of design. The Euro motor is actually more old-school than the US in some respects..

As far as tuning the US motor - there is great power potential without breaking the bank. There is a very definite point where you are simply trading reliability for that few extra horses. For example, narrow stem race valves will get much hotter than standard which can lead to problems. As well as items like titanium retainers- especially on a 4-valve head where the retainer is very small. We won't even install those on a street motor.

A setup like mine? Well that cost depends completely on what you're starting with. If you've already got a 3.2 then that's a bonus, but then you need an OBDI swap. Of course a 3.0 would require a new crankshaft..

The powerband with stock cams is really quite nice. It pulls hard down low, and the top end is certainly sufficient. I'm planning on doing cams down the road regardless of what long-block i'm running just because i've had the car with stock cams for so long and because i will be tracking the car more.

The 250whp/221wtq i'm putting down at present is not even all she's got. My AFR's are pretty choppy and there are several peaks/troughs. My revised AA software should fix it. In addition, my motor could use some headers.. and maybe a big-bore throttle body and pullies.

The ultimate street motor that retains reliability would be, in my opinion, a 3.2L bottom end with 11:1 custom pistons. Full headwork with oversize intake valves. Schrick 264/256 camshafts with the requisite injectors. An extrude honed Schrick aluminum manifold with 3.5 MAF and CAI. And whichever header works well with the powerband you're looking for.. 12lb flywheel, Sachs clutch/plate. Fan delete, pullies, etc. And some DYNO TUNING! That should be good for 270+whp and 235+wtq. Granted it would be pretty pricey.

I'd be happy to quote any configuration if you like..

Bottom line:

US S50 is a terrific motor. The Euro counterpart is very hot, but you certainly pay for that in parts prices and tuning options. The Euro motor is also about 20lbs heavier.

[czm3]

Originally posted by SG_M3
Isn't it just understood?

I guess it is. I undertand that DTM is for the e36 owner. Luckily for me, I bought my e36 M3 2 months ago. The only reason why I brought up the s54, is because it is the next evolution of the M3 motor. A couple of years ago, BMW engineers looked at the s52 and decided to come up with a new version for the new car. The result is the s54. The reason why I beleive it is important to the discussion is because this is the result of what happens when BMW decided to tune a 3.2L engine.