Cruises after the Santiago incident

[Villanuevas_BMW]

Out of respect, I did not want to post this on the other threads that dealt with the condolences, esspecially when this post may seem out of place. So I am sorry if this looks like just another thread of what happened

On BF, in the thread about what happened at the Newport meet, on page 8, I saw something that kind of made me think twice of what activities to do from now on at cruises. There was a comment made that whoever set up the cruise could be held liable and should find an attorney fast. After this some people actually agreed, some didnt. Personally I cant see how the cruise coordiantor can be held liable since: 1. Specific directions were posted also do be careful. 2. I dont think the cruise coordinator was at the site of the accident at the same time, therefore was not an involved party.

Please if you have any input/comments on this or the whole incident, post them here. Try to keep the condolence threads with condolence posts.

[petar7408]

are you looking for an answer to the question? if so, i think the "leader" should not have anything to do with it and not be liable..

[John]

In a criminal case, they would have to show that it was a forseeable outcome of the event. If they can prove he knew that people would be speeding, breaking the law, etc, they might have a criminal case.

If he's run a cruise before in which someone had an accident from speeding/racing, then they might have a position.

But you don't have to be found criminally guilty of anything to get sued. All a lawyer has to do is convince a majority of a jury that the person being sued is in some way reponsible or did something that lead to, or contributed to the death. I don't think it would be very hard to convince a jury after dragging the mother of the dead kid up on the stand that some young rich punks in BMWs should be made examples of.

If I was the person who ran the event, I'd be talking to a lawyer.

In a wrongfull death suit, they came name just about anyone and everyone that you could draw a conntection to. From bmw, to the event orginizer, to the guy in the black m3, even the other passenger in the red m3 if they can show he in someway encouraged the driver to do what he did.

[spyone]

Liability is an area where you can get screwed despite the apparent logic of the situation.

Some examples:
Despite clearly posted NO TRESSPASSING signs, a guy comes onto your proprety, slips and falls, and breaks his leg. Who pays his medical bills? Probably you.

You go to an event where folks will be dressing up in padded armor and hitting each other with padded wooden swords. You had to sign a form at registration that said you knew the risks and any injuries are your problem. During a match, an opponenet gets a good hit on you that breaks your leg. It is a bad break that won't heal right, so you now have a limp for the rest of your life. Can you sue the event organizers? Yep. Will you win? Good chance.

And: you set up a rally event where the rules clearly say NO SPEEDING. Some of the participants do speed. One of them has an accident. Can you be held responsible? Yep. If they can show that you knew some people were speeding (or otherwise behaving dangerously) and you did nothing to stop them, then you're really in trouble.

The best defense is to be untracable. However, I doubt you could organize an event without having contact with somebody, and that means there will be somebody who can rat you out.
The second best defense is to have so little money that suing you is pointless. This means owning a car that won't sell as scrap and makes blue clouds as you drive. Better still to not have a car and have to take the bus. So, again this doesn't really work.
The third best option is to have a lawyer cover your a$$. And he'll do a much better job if you hire him NOW, rather than waiting for something to happen.

[spyone]

On another aspect, some folks have asked about the charges facing the driver.

I don't know anything about Califorina law, but someone said that Speeding over 100mph and Street Racing are felonies. If so, remember that if you are engaged in a felony and someone dies as a result, that is Felony Murder which is Murder One. This counts little old ladies who become so freightened they have a heart attack.

Don't commit felonies, people. It really isn't safe.

[Villanuevas_BMW]

You guys have some very intresting points, but some points I find disturbing even scary. I only see two outcomes in cruises from now on, either no cruises get set up anymore or people become more responsible.

J.M3, I see the point with how a jury can show sympathy to a greiving mother that can change the outcome of a trial. Nobody would want to deal with what she is going through.

Spyone, Yup, tresspassing signs are useless. And if a robber breaks his leg on your property, I still cant believe that the person has the right to sue you. Ridiculous

[Saint]

Originally posted by Villanuevas_BMW
You guys have some very intresting points, but some points I find disturbing even scary. I only see two outcomes in cruises from now on, either no cruises get set up anymore or people become more responsible.

In the end, I think this will be the end of organized cruises, or they'll go on as usual, with people still doing silly things.

If people haven't figured out by now not do the stupid/dangerous things, then I doubt this wil change things. This guy isn't the first to wreck his car on a drive like this, and this probably isn't even the first fatality. People will still believe it won't happen to them and keep going.

How many accidents/ deaths have they're been from street racing, with no real change in how it's perceived or run?

It sucks that the organizer may have some kind of liability and may get sued. If he does get sued, I think that will make a bigger impact than the fatality. And that impact will be no more organized cruises/drives...

-Saint

[TomM]

On the few MINI cruises I've been on, the coordinator had us all sign waivers to clear her and everyone else involved of any responsibility. I think while it may be too mature for this crowd, it is a good idea.

In today's world, you can't count it out. Some people will just be out to get something in return to compensate for what they've done. I'd watch out if I were the organizer.

EDIT: So it seems waivers are useless? How does that work? If you sign a contract saying you won't pursue any legal action on an event coordinator, it seems it would all boil down to that contract you signed.

[Bimmer RaVer]

quote from friend


When a driver decides to partake in a cruse like the one where the person unfortunatly died, there is quite a bit of assumed risk that you might be injured or some property might be damaged. So this in turn clears the organizer of some blame. And about the waiver thing, if you have to sign a waiver not to sue the organizer and you get hurt you can not sue, the waiver, if you are 18 and are not intoxicated, is a legally binding contract and can not be broken, if it is then they can counter with breach of contract. Digging into not so case law, boxing matches are actually one place where this comes into play.

[petar7408]

i went on cruz's here before in the bay area.. we all go nuts! drive fast and crazy.. something is bound to happen sooner or later.. but i agree on something that should be signed saying "WHATEVER HAPPENS THERE CAN BE NO LAWSUITS" something like that..

[carguy84]

So basically, a few morons ruin the fun as always?

[petar7408]

Originally posted by carguy84
So basically, a few morons ruin the fun as always?

if you are refering to my post,
EVERY single car was speeding, taking turns insanely and NOT caring for the law. (more or less )

[E36M3]

Maybe instead of organizing cruises, they should organize "meets."