Stand Along ECU ?'s

Spencer · #1 (**permalink**) 10-05-2002, 08:00 PM

Sup guys,

It seems that my only option for software to go with my RMS Stage 2 S/C kit is going to be AA, after hearing even MORE stories of shaddy tuning from RMS.

AA wants $799 for their S/C software. They guarentee a flat a/f curve, and will re-do the software til its right. Obviously something I expect at that price.

I also have some money invested in a UNICHIP which I have had for a while. I figured I'd use it ontop of the software I go with if I decide that I need to mess with it at all.

Together, I'm going to have almost $1500 tied up in a chip and a piggyback ECU. So now I'm thinking at that price, I could go with a stand alone ecu.

I know the Motec is the best, but its much more $$$ than I'm willing to invest.

Right now, I'm thinking either a TEC 2 or 3 or maybe a Halteck (forget the model name, something with a 6).

Before I waste any time looking into this option, are there any huge drawbacks from using a stand alone? I like the fact that I can run a MAP sensor capable of 3 bar, not having to buy a new "chip" with every mod, and having a much higher level of capability over the stock ECU.

Basically my plans would be to add cams to the S/C system in the next year, along with large tube headers, and a full 3/3.25 exhaust system along with a high flow intake manifold. Obviously the AA software isn't going to run with these mods. And I know they dont have any software maps for these mods.

Do you guys think a UNICHIP would be sufficient to compensate for these mods?

Any ideas/comments on stand a lone ECU's would be appreciated.

Thanks.

95sdm3 · #2 (**permalink**) 10-05-2002, 08:12 PM

i have a friend that is putting a link stand alone system in his turbo golf vr6. they chose that over the tec system because a couple of customers were complaining about it. the dta system i have heard mixed reviews. as for the link system, it is from a company in australia and i thing they are more geared to vw/audi. i have another friend with a turbo e46 330i that is running the unichip, but he is not done tuning the car on the dyno to really tell results.

SoGold · #3 (**permalink**) 10-05-2002, 09:02 PM

couldnt you just add an Apex-i S-AFC and dyno tune it? you can pick up a used one for 250 and with a little tuning you could have that "perfect" a/f curve and it could adapt to each mod. you could also tune it without a dyno if you feel like forking over 700 or so for a wideband o2 sensor (FJO).

RageHard · #4 (**permalink**) 10-06-2002, 07:45 AM

The Haltec E6K is a nice unit, does not have a Knock Sensor IIRC
The TECII is a good unit, knock sensor, coils and will drive low Impedence Injectors but is a little exposed when mounted, The TECIII has solved this.

Hand's down the best EMS is the FJO Unit
http://www.fjoinc.com/automotive/341Bdetails.htm#341B
Made with military spec connectors and more features than you'll ever need.

If your running OBDI then the unichip should provide enough control, it'll raise the rev limit control fuel and spark and can drive 1 additional injector. I dont think it likes the OBDII System much though as most of the tuning is un-learned.

One oif the biggest concerns is finding a shop with tuning experiance and base maps, once the unit is setup you can then tweak it yourself.

Misterdvs · #5 (**permalink**) 10-08-2002, 01:03 PM

mooreta · #6 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 03:58 AM

Another option is the AFC and MSD ignition. This is cheaper than the stand alone, allows you to modify the fuel and timing to tune the car the way you want. I have the ESS SC and am in the process of adding a FMIC. I will have to add those item just to keep things in check. If you like I'll let you know how it works...

mooreta · #7 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 03:58 AM

Another option is the AFC and MSD ignition. This is cheaper than the stand alone, allows you to modify the fuel and timing to tune the car the way you want. I have the ESS SC and am in the process of adding a FMIC. I will have to add those item just to keep things in check. If you like I'll let you know how it works.

Spencer · #8 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 05:10 AM

I'd rather run a UNICHIP than that setup. Remember, with an MSD ignition you have to run TWO DIS-4 boxes, because MSD doesnt make a distributorless ignition box for 6 coils. So you run 3 coils on each box. So if you want to get plug-in's for ignition timing, etc, then you'll have to buy two of those also. It will become very expensive very quick.

And its not like our cars need an upgraded ignition anyways.

BMWGuy206 · #9 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 05:49 AM

Quote:

And its not like our cars need an upgraded ignition anyways.

That depends on what type of forced induction you're using and how much boost or shot of nitrous it'll be putting out.

schnazzy · #10 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 05:51 AM

Another fuel system is the SDS fuel syste www.sdsefi.com.

Their system is about $1000 retail, it is easy to setup and has a breakout box instead of requiring a pc and software.

A local shop puts these in all the time. They also do Apexi and Motec but those systems take longer on the dyno compared to this system. Most of the cars they put them in are Subaru's and toyota supras. (really fast supras). For a motec system installed and dyno tuned they said it costs about $4000+, for an SDS with the same features used < $2000. Retuning for a new part is super cheap, for a very clean tune when adding major components they recoment a new dyno tune but it isn't a lot of time on the dyno. They do 2nd gen supra's with custom turbos/exhaust etc in less than an hour dyno (note, they have done a few) plus the few hours of install.

Most importantly pick a GREAT installer/tuner.

I bet AA can do a chip for whatever mods you do. RMS can do the same thing. RMS is more of a supercharger company and AA is more of a turbo company. Both can do the software but if you don't feel great about shipping chips in the mail, then a standalone may be for you (with mods).

I am no chip tuner (yet ;-)) so I can't tell you how good or bad AA or RMS are, but I know they have the equipment and have experience.

stimpee · #11 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RageHard
If your running OBDI then the unichip should provide enough control, it'll raise the rev limit control fuel and spark and can drive 1 additional injector. I dont think it likes the OBDII System much though as most of the tuning is un-learned.

One oif the biggest concerns is finding a shop with tuning experiance and base maps, once the unit is setup you can then tweak it yourself.

Coupla things, first of all, the OBDII DME does not "unlearn" anyhing. It does adapt, however the only way things get changed enough that anyone could consider it "unlearning" is if you do not tune the closed loop settings properly, such that the open loop settings then get altered due to the closed loop corrections being applied. If you tune it properly, your settings will "stay". The OBDII system does not magically "rewrite" the engine software like so many people seem to think...

Also, the S-AFC will NEVER give you a "flat AFR" curve as someone mentioned. The thing does not even come close to having enough resolution in its "maps" (and I use the term loosely) to allow proper tuning of all operating points. I am not knocking the AFC for what it is, as it is a nice piece that provides some self tuning capability, but if your base maps in the car are not close, it will not provide you with enough adjustability to get all areas of operation tuned correctly.

Of course, all of the above is just my humble opinion!!!!

Steve

E36M3 · #12 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 08:07 AM

I am sending my car up to Vic Sias later this month in San Jose since he has done several TEC3's on BMW's...both OBD1 and OBD2.

The reason I chose a TEC 3 was because it had multiple outputs which I can use.

I don't see a reason to simply invest in a AFC if you need a management system that controls boost, water injection, etc. AFC is just that...air and fuel. If you have needs other than air and fuel, you need something more sophisticated.

By the way, I have noticed with some tuners in our industry that they focus too much on fuel and not enough on timing. Remember that not enough fuel will lean you out...but so will TOO MUCH TIMING.

E36M3 · #13 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 08:07 AM

I am sending my car up to Vic Sias later this month in San Jose since he has done several TEC3's on BMW's...both OBD1 and OBD2. www.siastuning.com

The reason I chose a TEC 3 was because it had multiple outputs which I can use.

I don't see a reason to simply invest in a AFC if you need a management system that controls boost, water injection, etc. AFC is just that...air and fuel. If you have needs other than air and fuel, you need something more sophisticated.

By the way, I have noticed with some tuners in our industry that they focus too much on fuel and not enough on timing. Remember that not enough fuel will lean you out...but so will TOO MUCH TIMING.

paul e · #14 (**permalink**) 10-10-2002, 11:19 AM

Steve, maybe you or somebody else can comment on this aspect of tuning. We all know that Dinan employs their Turbotronics-9 device which is an HFM Signal scaler. Im not calling it an HFM 'Clamp' here because there is some conjecture as to whether this device only functions as a clamp, or in some other ways scales the signal. Im guessing its the latter, and not a simple clamp, but I dont know for sure. But regardless, the point is that it keeps the HFM signal from exceeding 5 Volts, and triggering a CE light. I believe rMS uses their own version of this device, again preventing the CE light.

So, what happens if you decide to use one of these stand alone units...HOw is this 5V limit dealt with. Then, there's the question of guys like AA (well, there are really no other guys 'like' AA, so lets just say, 'Then theres the question of AA...). How do they keep the signal from exceeding 5 volts? Or, can they reprogram things so that 5 Volts is no longer the problem that it is now? ie, I dont know how high the signal will go with, say, an 11 psi system, but my clamp triggers at 6000 rpms. Lets say hypothetically that without a clamp device, it'll go to 7 volts at redline on a CF type blower. When they write their dme software, do they rewrite this CE trigger point? Or is this beyond their control. And, if they can rewrite it, then why didnt Dinan or RMS do so?

So, I guess its a two part question: First part deals with stand alone units like those mentioned, and the second deals with AA, and how theyd like approach it.

Spencer · #15 (**permalink**) 10-10-2002, 11:44 AM

Most of these stand alone systems replace the HFM setup we have with a 2 or 3 bar MAP sensor so there is no problem with maxing out.

As far as AA goes, I spoke with Tong (tkm3) a week ago about some S/C software. He claimed that the euro hfm, which they use on higer boost applications will read up past 12 psi, so it really never hits the 5v clamp.

Also, from my understanding, the HFM wont send out more than 5 volts, so even if you setup the ECU to read above 5 volts, the HFM would basically stop reading at 5 volts.