whats quicker off the line SMG OR manual?

[motorsports_3]

Originally Posted by kiley_sean

This should be in E46 section, but to answer your question: Depends on driver.

If the driver is experienced with a manual tranny, then the ability to do high-rev launches will certainly be an advantage over the SMG. Otherwise, he will spin-out or bog-down the launch and the SMG "consistency" will take the upperhand.

But, once past the launch, the SMG's shifting will out-do the human's reaction skills with the manual and start exploiting.

SMG was availible on the e36 but only in Europe, so it could be talked about on the e36 forum. Shouldnt SMG inessence be faster is the computer work was optimal. THe EURO smg is better ? But since the SMG has launch control, which is computer controlled, like traction control it alwayts hold the car back off the line, to not have wheel spin. But for fun faxctor manual is much better.

[kiley_sean]

Originally Posted by motorsports_3

SMG was availible on the e36 but only in Europe, so it could be talked about on the e36 forum.

Ehh...for the sake of arguing I have never heard or read about any E36's with the option of SMG, not even in Europe (are you sure you are not thinking of tip-tronic?).

Before we spread anymore misinformation do you have any evidence that would show otherwise? This is news to me and alot of other people.

Anyways, I was kindly asking him, for future reference sake and for his benefit, that this topic would be better suited, and responded to, by the people with real SMG experience in the E46 section.

[VashS]

I have never heard of the SMG being offered on the E36 M3. I have been to Europe a few times in the past few years and I have read plenty of car magazines, and I have never seen or heard anything about that. If you could get an article or some information online that might help to enlighten us. As for the US SMG they have simulated highrev drops unlike the european version where you can really do the high rev drops and get better perfromance. Also for the US SMG you can only do 10 simulated drops and then you void your warranty on the gearbox all together.

[motorsports_3]

Here goto these two links,
http://www.bmwworld.com/models/config/m3_smg.htm

http://www.bmwworld.com/models/m3_e36.htm

Read a little and it is there.

[skd2k1]

if i knew how to post a pic, ive actually got a picture of an e36 with smg. i can mail it to someone if they want to post it.

[swingtime]

From some of the above posts:

Well the Launch control sounds more like traction control where it limits the tires from spinning-out. I have heard that the launch mode on the US SMG doesn't allow as high of an RPM launch as it's euro counterpart (just what I have heard, can't back it up).

There are actually two different versions of launch control, and two different loads. One computer load is for Europe, one is for US. The two different versions of launch control are 'normal' and 'burnout'. In both cases you turn off DSC, and put the shifting mode into S6 (the fastest).

In 'normal' (US) mode, you touch the gas, and it revs to about 1500Rpm.
In 'normal' (Europe) mode, you thouch the gas, and it revs to about 3500Rpm.

Let go of the shifter and it takes off very quickly.

In 'burnout' (US) mode, you stomp on the gas, and it revs to about 4000Rpm.
I dont know if there is a 'burnout' (Euro) mode, but with a default of 4k....

Either way, it engages the clutch much harder, and you get much more wheel spin/smoke etc. The problem you have here is that if you also stomp on the brakes and launch you could end up bouncing off the rev-limiter. In first gear the E46 climbes ~3000rpm/second. Its just not a good thing to do over and over, and in some cases can cause the engine to rev over 8000rpm (possibly b/c the cutoff doesnt cut gas fast enough, and even though the cut is there, it still keeps accelerating).

Manual trannys have the advantage over the SMG if it allows for higher RPM launches with slipping with the clutch.

Yes a higher rpm clutch drop is possible w/ a manual, but that may not get you the acceleration you are looking for so much as being able to slip the clutch in-between gears (aka partial shift/riding the clutch) that will get you a more significant boost. Since SMG doesnt allow for those antics, thats more likely where you get the .3 difference.

Isn't the Sequential-Manual-Gearbox a clutchless tranny?

No. SMG has a clutch, but it is controlled by the car. When you are driving, foot on the gas, and click the 'up shift' lever, the car
a) knows in what sequence each of the 6 pistons is in
b) cuts the gas on each of the 6 throttle bodies
c) engages the clutch
d) selects the next gear
e) disengages the clutch
f) continues the gas flow.

Since the gas start/stop is part of the process, even though you drive a manual, you can keep your foot on the gas You pick when you want to shift. There are two modes, one Automated (where there are pre-set Rpm shift points) and Sequential (where you decided when/if to shift). If you get in, and just stomp the gas, you will stay in 1st gear and bump off the rev limiter.

To add more options, there is something called "Drivelogic" which allows you to adjust how quickly the shifting process takes. The fastest is 0.08 seconds, the slowest is about 1.2 seconds. The first time I used the fastest shifts it feels really odd, b/c its SO FAST that it feels like someone is just hitting the back of the car. Its really fast. Think about it. 0.08 seconds. You cant move your foot to start the clutch before its done.

When downshifting, the engine will automatically double-declutch, meaning if you have your foot on the gas, SMG will rev match what Rpm the next lower gear should be, and then disengage the clutch. This is probably the most important part b/c while some people can do the heel/toe, eventually you will make a mistake. SMG does it about 90% as well as a racer....every time.

Finally if you are insane enough to look, there are shift lights, actually LED's in the tac to indicate shift points. Just like a race car.

..the power-to-weight is the same (don't know the weight of the SMG).

SMG adds about 100 pounds to the car, maybe a bit more/less. Its not going to be very much of a difference.

ive also heard that you can get the euro programming for the higher rpm launch.

Yes you can. There is actually a software load version that you ask for when you bring your car in. Since the launch control feature is non-documented, most dealerships dont know what you are asking for or why

I have never heard of the SMG being offered on the E36 M3. I have been to Europe a few times in the past few years and I have read plenty of car magazines, and I have never seen or heard anything about that.

It was, but very limited. It was called SMG. Technically the E46 version is called SMGII. The E46 CSL is basically SMG III, with the added benefit of having an 'M mode track mode' that would allow for DSC to turn on only if the car was beyond a 10-15 degree slip angle. Beyond that angle chances are either your going to go into a spin, or your are not taking the most efficient way around the corner (aka drifting). You of course can turn it off as well.

If you really want to read about SMG I vs SMGII, here is a LONG article about it. Yes SMG I existed in the E36, but it was not nearly as popular as SMG II. http://www.bmw-forums.com/forum/topic14951.html

Also for the US SMG you can only do 10 simulated drops and then you void your warranty on the gearbox all together.

This is probably true. There have been various people saying how many you can/cannot do, and if there is a counter in the DME that logs the number of launches. The general thought is that you get 3 free, then it starts counting. Ive never done one, but I can tell you that just a normal launch (stomp/S6/go go go) is a ton of pressure on the clutch, and you can smell it after you do it 2 times. Launch control is more agressive than that, so its probably no a good idea to do this many times.

If anyone wants to find me at a meet, Ill take them out and show them how SMG works as I drive.

ST

[Howies]

SMG is by no means made for drag racing. I wonder why so many people are concerned about the launches.

[swingtime]

I dont think the M3 is made for drag races, and SMG is definatly not either. The M is about precision in a turn. Precision engineering. A very capable driving machine, that is wrapped in a good looking suit. Its not a race car, and its not a luxury car. I really do love mine, even though sometimes she acts up.

The other things people usually dont realize that when you own an M, a coupe ranked probably in the top 95% of cars on the road (total numbers wise), that you have much more maintance related to keeping things in top shape.

[Is10bulBMW]

Originally Posted by skd2k1

i dont see how manual could be faster than smg, especially with launch control. why wouldnt formula 1 use a manual tranny then?

Think about it. At speeds in excess of 190mph even Schumi himself couldnt shit flawlessly through turn after turn. Sure it isnt impossible for Schumi to take a Ferrari through turn after turn at high speeds but the main factor is concentration. SMG is a lot better on the track. I've tried but so honestly SMG gets better lap times.

[//M]

Manuel 13.2 1/4 mile

[B33m3|2b0Y]

Ya i upgraded my software to the euro spec and it drops the clutch at 5500rpms instead of 3500rpms. With the software maybe it might be faster than manual, but only with launch control. I have raced another m3 with manual at the track and beat him by 0.72 seconds. Was he experienced with manual, your guess is as good as mine, but winning is winning.

About the warranty being void, I have heard mixed answers from the dealerships in Canada. Some say yes, some say no, some say only on the transmission, but most say it depends on the year of your car. This was the best answer I could get from about 15 dealerships. If someone could give me a no bullshit answer about the warranty void I would really appreciate it.

[B33m3|2b0Y]

Originally Posted by B33m3|2b0Y

Ya i upgraded my software to the euro spec and it drops the clutch at 5500rpms instead of 3500rpms. With the software maybe it might be faster than manual, but only with launch control. I have raced another m3 with manual at the track and beat him by 0.72 seconds. Was he experienced with manual, your guess is as good as mine, but winning is winning.

About the warranty being void, I have heard mixed answers from the dealerships in Canada. Some say yes, some say no, some say only on the transmission, but most say it depends on the year of your car. This was the best answer I could get from about 15 dealerships. If someone could give me a no bullshit answer about the warranty void I would really appreciate it.

My bad I didnt realize what I had done till later then next day. I was wrong when I said the car launches from 5500rpms. It launches at 3500rpms with the euro software. Should have double checked before posting. My bad.

[KellenerSptM5]

I think SMG only adds about 17 or 18 pounds to the total weight, not 100.

[E46_M_CI]

Swingtime should change his name to BMW Dictionary...
lol that guy is my hero - he answered every question i ever had about SMGII gearboxes...