95 M3 needs new clutch!

[Finster]

Hey guys, I'm new here and wanted to see whats up. I just bought a 95 M3 (03/04 production) after returning from Iraq and looking forward to hooking it up. so far I've rebuilt the suspension with H&R springs/Bilstein shocks, Vorshlag motor mounts and an AA chip.

the guy i bought it from though has a LWF in it and i'm not sure what size/weight etc... I was looking at the UUC flywheel kits to replace everything at once. is this a good idea or is there a better option?

thanks!

[BadGTho]

i am totally against the LTW flywheel.. it's not what the car was designed to have and can lead to the oil pump nut letting go, will cause gear clatter and the UUC model specifically has been known to to let go.

i am all for OEM clutch an flywheel. it costs more money, but is correct for the application.

[I3MW]

Really? I thought that was just the LTW flywheel with a crank pulley? Where did you get that info? I don't understand what the problem would be if you take care of the oil pump nut? Bimmerworld makes a good kit that uses the M3 pressure plate ect.

[BadGTho]

the engine is balanced from the factory and the stock dual mass flywheel is a counterweight/vibration isolator.

going to a solid flywheel and spring hub clutch will allow more vibration. period.

this can cause the OPN to loosen up... sure you can remedy that, but the vibrations cannot be cured.

additionally, the lighter flywheel causes serious gear clatter. the remedy for this seems to be spiking the tranny fluid with gear oil. i will not even go into why that is a really bad idea.

where did i get this information? 2 M3s, lots of experience, lots of research.

fundamentally, the LTW flywheel adds no power. it's a less expensive alternative, that's why people do it, they make excuses.

disregard the above if it's a track car.

[I3MW]

Originally Posted by BadGTho

the engine is balanced from the factory and the stock dual mass flywheel is a counterweight/vibration isolator.

going to a solid flywheel and spring hub clutch will allow more vibration. period.

this can cause the OPN to loosen up... sure you can remedy that, but the vibrations cannot be cured.

Okay, understood. So if you remedy the OPN what are the downsides to these vibrations besides undesirable noise? I understand the point of harmonic balancers but I have never heard of an failure occurring simply from an ltw flywheel.

additionally, the lighter flywheel causes serious gear clatter. the remedy for this seems to be spiking the tranny fluid with gear oil. i will not even go into why that is a really bad idea.

where did i get this information? 2 M3s, lots of experience, lots of research.

fundamentally, the LTW flywheel adds no power. it's a less expensive alternative, that's why people do it, they make excuses.

disregard the above if it's a track car.

Okay but what if one just uses the correct gear oil, does not hearing the noise actually mean the problem isn't there? It does make the car accelerate faster no? There are other ways to make our cars go faster but this is one of them and if you have to replace the clutch it becomes cost effective unlike most of our straight line mods. I only ask because my original clutch is also on its way out and I've driven an e36 M3 with an ltw flywheel and it was quite enjoyable both in acceleration and deceleration, upshifting and down shifting.

[BadGTho]

Originally Posted by I3MW

Okay, understood. So if you remedy the OPN what are the downsides to these vibrations besides undesirable noise? I understand the point of harmonic balancers but I have never heard of an failure occurring simply from an ltw flywheel.

you might be right.. but i don't gamble.

Originally Posted by I3MW

Okay but what if one just uses the correct gear oil, does not hearing the noise actually mean the problem isn't there?

the correct fluid is ATF.. you will hear the gear clatter. if you spike the ATF, the noise will be somewhat less but you're basically ruining your transmission over time.

Originally Posted by I3MW

It does make the car accelerate faster no? There are other ways to make our cars go faster but this is one of them and if you have to replace the clutch it becomes cost effective unlike most of our straight line mods.

in theory, yes. in practice.. you will not win a race because of it. if you want to make the car faster there are many options available to you that cause no harm.

Originally Posted by I3MW

I only ask because my original clutch is also on its way out and I've driven an e36 M3 with an ltw flywheel and it was quite enjoyable both in acceleration and deceleration, upshifting and down shifting.

it's hard to compare 2 different cars. i've driven dozens of E36 M3s and no two are alike.

a good clutch, stainless line, new slave, ZHP knob, new shifter bushings, new tranny mount will make the car drive and shift nicer as it is.

my advice, replace with OEM.

[I3MW]

well I like you advice and appreciate your honesty. I know that if I replace my clutch with an OEM one and do all the other maintenance (detents, seals, gubio, linkage ect.) it will be much improved. But when you say you will not win a race because of it, I don't really understand. I don't plan to just start out driving people and passing cars that are much more competitive than my own. But in theory acceleration is improved and this is reflected in the 1/4 mile times of the most competitive NA e36s. Now I don't really plan on drag racing and I think the improvement in mechanical braking is minor but it seems there is an increase in performance. BTW what are some other options to make your car faster, feel free to PM if you think we're getting off topic.

[BadGTho]

Originally Posted by I3MW

well I like you advice and appreciate your honesty. I know that if I replace my clutch with an OEM one and do all the other maintenance (detents, seals, gubio, linkage ect.) it will be much improved. But when you say you will not win a race because of it, I don't really understand. I don't plan to just start out driving people and passing cars that are much more competitive than my own. But in theory acceleration is improved and this is reflected in the 1/4 mile times of the most competitive NA e36s. Now I don't really plan on drag racing and I think the improvement in mechanical braking is minor but it seems there is an increase in performance. BTW what are some other options to make your car faster, feel free to PM if you think we're getting off topic.

when i said you will not win a race because of it i mean that if you have 2 identical cars, save for the LTW flywheel, that alone will not decide who wins or loses. this mod is often a single part of a very competitive package and like many mods, the effectiveness of any one mod is compounded by others. in terms of its mechanical theory there are advantages.

real world examples prove that this mod does not make the car "faster" especially those that are relatively stock. for these cars (like yours and mine) the long term reliabitity of the OE clutch trumps a theoretical gain. if you have a race car and weight reduction is paramount, yes it saves some weight. if you have a modded motor that needs high RPM, yes the car will rev more freely.

if you want to drop the car's weight.. there are many many threads on that.

if you want to add to add some power, an exhaust, some software, an M50 manifold, etc.

if you want to make the car faster, get the free revving, the better engine braking etc.. swap the diff and go to a deeper gear, 3.38. 3.64 etc.

[Roland H]

Originally Posted by BadGTho

when i said you will not win a race because of it i mean that if you have 2 identical cars, save for the LTW flywheel, that alone will not decide who wins or loses. this mod is often a single part of a very competitive package and like many mods, the effectiveness of any one mod is compounded by others. in terms of its mechanical theory there are advantages.

real world examples prove that this mod does not make the car "faster" especially those that are relatively stock. for these cars (like yours and mine) the long term reliabitity of the OE clutch trumps a theoretical gain. if you have a race car and weight reduction is paramount, yes it saves some weight. if you have a modded motor that needs high RPM, yes the car will rev more freely.

if you want to drop the car's weight.. there are many many threads on that.

if you want to add to add some power, an exhaust, some software, an M50 manifold, etc.

if you want to make the car faster, get the free revving, the better engine braking etc.. swap the diff and go to a deeper gear, 3.38. 3.64 etc.

3.38 doesn't necessarily make the car "faster" either. My car is actually slower in the quarter mile because I have to shift because of the 3.38. I also noticed that I started losing to cars I used to pull on after putting the 3.38 in. What the 3.38 does: gives you more low end grunt, kills your top end, makes the back end feel more planted in the corners (especially when the rear end steps out on you). Having the gearing matched to your power band is essential. A LTW flywheel is a much better solution for making your car faster with no drawbacks.

[BadGTho]

Originally Posted by Roland H

3.38 doesn't necessarily make the car "faster" either. My car is actually slower in the quarter mile because I have to shift because of the 3.38. I also noticed that I started losing to cars I used to pull on after putting the 3.38 in. What the 3.38 does: gives you more low end grunt, kills your top end, makes the back end feel more planted in the corners (especially when the rear end steps out on you). Having the gearing matched to your power band is essential.

basic rules of dragracing indicate that if you shift quickly, the 3.38 will help you. i mean you have to shift the same amount of times.. just in closer sequence.

Originally Posted by Roland H

A LTW flywheel is a much better solution for making your car faster with no drawbacks.

see the afore mentioned draw backs.

the flywheel solves nothing but create problems that need to be solved.

[Roland H]

Originally Posted by BadGTho

basic rules of dragracing indicate that if you shift quickly, the 3.38 will help you. i mean you have to shift the same amount of times.. just in closer sequence.

see the afore mentioned draw backs.

the flywheel solves nothing but create problems that need to be solved.

Up here with the stock 3.23, I don't have to shift to get to the quarter, with the 3.38 I do. Remember, we have no oxygen up here.

It's really dependent on the power band too though. The 3.38 shortens my top end which is where my motor shines and shorten the bottom end where my motor sucks (I'm not spending the money on a custom tune). So it takes a bit from the top and gives it to the bottom and makes the car slower at things like drag racing and high-rpm use but makes it more fun to drive on the street. I suppose it would be a lot more helpful if my powerband didn't suck so much.

So for street use, it's probably a good mod, and probably for the track too, but it really depends on where your power is.

Honestly, the only real drawback of a LTW flywheel is chatter and additional stress on the U-Joint. Additional issues with harmonics are relative to how the flywheel is made and if it's properly balanced before install. A lot of people go out and buy UUC/Rogue/JB ltw flywheels and don't even make sure that they are properly balanced before installed. The only person I know of that had motor issues due to a LTW flywheel is CMT and that's because his AA flywheel was defective.

The real issue that people believe are a problem with LTW flywheels is using a different crank pulley with the flywheel which is what screws up balance of the motor. You should not have an issue with vibrations as long as your flywheel assembly is balanced as close as possible to 0. The factory flywheel is dual mass so it doesn't have to be routinely balanced because that would be something people would neglect to do due to cost and effort and then their motor would be trashed.

But then again I could be wrong, I'm not an engineer *yet.*

[BadGTho]

Originally Posted by Roland H

Up here with the stock 3.23, I don't have to shift to get to the quarter, with the 3.38 I do. Remember, we have no oxygen up here.

It's really dependent on the power band too though. The 3.38 shortens my top end which is where my motor shines and shorten the bottom end where my motor sucks (I'm not spending the money on a custom tune). So it takes a bit from the top and gives it to the bottom and makes the car slower at things like drag racing and high-rpm use but makes it more fun to drive on the street. I suppose it would be a lot more helpful if my powerband didn't suck so much.

So for street use, it's probably a good mod, and probably for the track too, but it really depends on where your power is.

Honestly, the only real drawback of a LTW flywheel is chatter and additional stress on the U-Joint. Additional issues with harmonics are relative to how the flywheel is made and if it's properly balanced before install. A lot of people go out and buy UUC/Rogue/JB ltw flywheels and don't even make sure that they are properly balanced before installed. The only person I know of that had motor issues due to a LTW flywheel is CMT and that's because his AA flywheel was defective.

The real issue that people believe are a problem with LTW flywheels is using a different crank pulley with the flywheel which is what screws up balance of the motor. You should not have an issue with vibrations as long as your flywheel assembly is balanced as close as possible to 0. The factory flywheel is dual mass so it doesn't have to be routinely balanced because that would be something people would neglect to do due to cost and effort and then their motor would be trashed.

But then again I could be wrong, I'm not an engineer *yet.*

many OPN issues can be traced to the LTW flywheel.. and i know of a UUC LTW flywheel that let go and blew through the bellhousing.

OEM ftw.